Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jun 27, 2016 2:48 am

zeuzzz wrote: I am just wondering where you get the notion that genetics/epigenetics destroys the theory that agents that can drastically effect cognition, behaviours and perspective could not have effected the evolutionary trajectory of a species.


Both the existing DNA and Epigenetic modifiers have already evolved to turn on and off already existing evolved gene sequences.

Magic mushrooms do not trigger any unique epigenetic sequence do they?

So why are you still under the delusion that magic mushrooms cause or trigger unique epigenetic sequences that caused modern man to evolve, by adding new genes? It doesn't even make sense.

What is this magical biological mechanism that you claim you can name, but never do so, that allows conscious thoughts to generate new genes to make modern man to evolve?

Zeuzzz. Do you know what the theory of evolution is yet. We have just learned in the UFO thread that neither Freebill, Jo 753 or Gorgeous know what the theory is, yet they all say it is not true. Aren't you just the same as those idiots? :D

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby scrmbldggs » Mon Jun 27, 2016 3:04 am

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby OlegTheBatty » Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:42 pm

zeuzzz wrote:
OlegTheBatty wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:.... go on

Where? (I feel free to decline if I wish.)


I am just wondering where you get the notion that genetics/epigenetics destroys the theory that agents that can drastically effect cognition, behaviours and perspective could not have effected the evolutionary trajectory of a species.

We see this in other animals as they settle into their various ecological niches, from the environmental effect of general diets effects on metabolism and neurochemistry, right down the spectrum to reindeer munching full blown psychedelic Amanita Muscaria and cats using catnip;

Where are their civilizations?
why not humans in the distant prehistoric past too? Without going into the complexities of timescales and population bottlenecks ...

Or as you put it, and ended with a question mark, that I would like resolved; "Why genetics/epigenetics destroys your theory?"

Well why so?

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:53 pm

Methylation does change gene expression. As can histone modifications.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:59 pm

zeuzzz wrote:Methylation does change gene expression. As can histone modifications.


Zeuzzz. Take it really slowly in small steps.

Are any new genes, that have not already evolved, being introduced by this process? Yes or No?

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:13 pm

No. Dir. Psycholgical changes are not instantly gene centric. This mindset of yours is doing you no favors here. The previous was about changing the expression of genes, not adding new ones.

Matt. Take it slowly; do genetic determism based ideologies have any useful import into current human biology?

Lets try a little small experiment here, so I can make my point. Since you seem stuck in this genetic determinism based perspective.

Lets contrast a couple of things in the environment we all know. Flys. We all know about flies, yes? Lets look at their genes. And lets do something more; lets compare fly neurogenetics to human genetics.

Image

Humans and flies share many physiological aspects, essentially (statistically) they have the same genes and the same neurons; however from a 2:3 ratio of genetic data flies tell us very little if anything about humans.

Dept herp. Obvious ... no? I will save you the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWZAL64E0DI
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:17 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:So it seems. I cannot find any of what is described above at the provided link to gizmag. :?


Is that a challenge to reference every single bulleted claim I made in a way that you will accept?

Because if so I will happily rise to that challenge, and supply voluminous evidence for each, with scientific references, where studies have been made legally susceptible to such verification.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:31 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:So it seems. I cannot find any of what is described above at the provided link to gizmag. :?


The Gizmag article was from a John Hopkins experiment.

I never claimed that you could find the mryiad of subjective mushroom experiences I listed previously from the linked to gizmag article.

In fact I said it quite clearly "Using John Hopkins studies dosages as a marker" I only linked to that article as a marker for the dosage reports I posted in the subsequent post, rather than people just take my word about dosage. There is a more clinical and medicinal perspective to this.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:40 pm

zeuzzz wrote: Matt. Take it slowly; do genetic determism based ideologies have any useful import into current human biology?
No as there is no mechanism. Next question.

zeuzzz wrote: Since you seem stuck in this genetic determinism based perspective.
You mean Matthew understands and studied biology and the theory of evolution, and Zeuzzz doesn't and hasn't . Got that! :D

zeuzzz wrote:Lets contrast a couple of things in the environment we all know. Flys. We all know about flies, yes?
That is true due to high offspring population and short lifespan, they are useful in genetic experiments.

zeuzzz wrote: Humans and flies share many physiological aspects, essentially (statistically) they have the same genes and the same neurons
No Zeuzzz they are absolutely different, short lifespans, high volume offspring, completely different reproduction strategies as they are insects not mammals, in fact the list is quite long.

zeuzzz wrote:...genetic data flies tell us very little if anything about humans.
Yes......and?

Zeuzzz? Do you actually have a point to make? It appears you are simply rambling.

Zeuzzz, try not to divert again. Can you name the biological process that you claim connects epigenetics to conscious thought, to make new genes, to make modern humans evolve, as you claim?

I'd love to talk to you about flies but after some years of university statistics to allow me to review early hominid characteristics, which is what we are talking about...can't we just stick to your claim.......whatever that actually is? :lol:

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:57 pm

Why do you persist to quote my posts whilst loosing their over-arching meaning Matt? This is not how normal people have a productive and open minded skeptical discussion.

Matthew Ellard wrote:Can you name the biological process that you claim connects epigenetics to conscious thought


Biofeedback changes not just peoples states of mind but their basic endocrine systems in the process. I can elaborate on this link however tenous you may think it is almost indefinately.

to make new genes, to make modern humans evolve, as you claim?


I understand the genetic differentiation between species; however I think you have a huge gap in your deterministic worldview. As your gene centric view of the world is now extremely outmoded ... if we are really dealing with a less than 1% gene differentiation that leads to every unique human behaviour ... if you deny this fact I will start a thread for you now to explain every single human cognitive unique behaviour that our nearest ancestors do not have
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:00 am

Did anyone watch Robert Sapolsky video I linked to above? I found it very interesting, as it explains how we are cognitively different from other primates, amoungst other things.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:00 am

zeuzzz wrote: Obvious ... no? I will save you the time.
Zeuzzz. I watched this one hour long video, that you posted. What part of this video are you actually quoting or asking me to understand? Have you wasted my time yet again? Have you watched this video in full yourself? .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWZAL64E0DI[/quote]

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:04 am

scrmbldggs wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:Well if we are keeping with a mushroom centric perspective on changes in consciousness leading to changes in behaviour and culture that can be inherited between generations mushrooms have a distinct fingerprint once gastronomy is at a sufficient evolutionary level.

Since there is a spectrum of effects to any psychoactive we should start at the threshold and end up at the effective dosage levels. Using John Hopkins studies dosages as a marker. http://www.gizmag.com/johns-hopkins-psi ... age/18981/

At the threshold effect (micro-dosing level) of ingesting just 1-2mg/70kg of psilocybin a number of things are noted:

* Increase in abstract thought and tangential thinking outside the realms of ordinary metabolic reality
* CNS stimulation in terms of a broadening in perceptive scope, noticing things in the immediate environment that are not usually noticed
* Increase in tactile senses, colors are enhanced, visual accuity in terms of edge detection is increased, as the contrast between the now more vibrant colors seems more distinct
* Due to increase in CNS stimulation this can act as a mild aphrodisiac, leading to more offspring
* There are many more reported effects at this dosage level but since the dose is so small many of the effects are difficult to control vs placebo due to other variables effecting the results, I could list some thirty more ...

At the 3-10mg/70kg level there are new phenomenon and an increase in the above

* A breaking of ordinary behavioural patterns so completely new and novel behaviours and cognitive effects become evident
* A more psychologically introspective state is reached, called by psychopharmacologists meta-cognition (ie, thinking about thinking). This is the state that seems to cure people that have OCD ailments, as they are able to 'pull back' from their usual habitual behaviours and see how unproductive they are.
* Feelings (both positive and negative) are enhanced due to this change in meta-cognition
* Incessant laughter and bonding is very common at these low levels, with traits similar to those of enactogenic agents
* Creativity is enhanced as the normal mental modality of thought previously constrained by metabolism is pushed more to the abstract realm
* A loss of self identity (a diminishing of the ego) starts to happen, so social constructs built up by culture start to dissolve and people feel more free, the personality metric used by Griffiths et al in his studies is an 'increase in personality domain of open-ness'

At the 10mg-20mg/70kg level

* Visual hallucinations and a blurring of the immediate environment, to the point where things that are not there begin to be seen, only OEVs, but not CEVs (closed eye visuals)
* The RSN (resting state network) state of mind is peturbed to the point that self identity is hard to conceptualize, leading to a greatly diminished ego and place in the hierarchy of the troop/culture
* A synaesthetic state is reached, where all of the senses get melded together and can interplay and manifest in new novel ways, often experienced as a logos like voice in the head
* Emotions and introspection into ones mental modality and psyche are greatly enhanced, and less focussed on the local environment and more on ones internal state of mind and how this has effected ones behaviours in the past in relation to other people (ie, mirror neuron activity is greatly enhanced)
* A catalysis of consciousness in terms of new ideas, thoughts, insights and feelings; as previously neurologically compartmentalized areas of the brain are shut down due to previously separate areas forming new connections with each other
* At these dosage levels fMRI scans have shown definate decreases in cerebral blood-flow (CBF) in the posterior cingulate cortex, which acts mainly as a kind of central hub where all most cognitive day to day thoughts and input is filtered through, and is the main difference in neuroscience that distinguishes us from primates, as this region displays very high ontogenetic development with time as the brain develops, and is also significantly larger in humans than in primates, with higher density of connections to the rest of the brain

At the 20-40mg/70kg level

* Visual hallucinations and a blurring of the immediate environment become over-powering, communication is out of the question, OEVs are intense and CEVs are even more intense, and referred to in the literature as either mystical or visionary states, with eyes either open or shut
* The RSN is peturbed to the point where self identity is replaced by a feeling of 'one-ness', not just with fellow members of the troop/culture but with the local environment and nature itself
* These intense states are accompanied by fractal visions, and can be accompanied by states of psychological struggle as people wrestle with the loss of their ego and self identity
* The imagination begins to manifest more than external reality and the local environment, leading to a state of synaesthetic creativity that meld all senses into one
* Either the subject starts to panic at the profundity of the experience, with a peak in adrenalin to slowly wear off as the psilocin is metabolized, or they can relax into the experience and come out of it transformed and with a new perspective of the self, their environment, their culture/troop and their place in it. Some 80% of humans who reach this state (from the John Hopkins research) report it to be one of the most spiritually significant happenings of their lives, on a par with giving birth, falling in love for the first time or experiencing the death of a loved one.

Dosages up to ten times that (200-400mg/70kg) are even stronger, but never fatal (maybe for people with pre-existing heart conditions). It takes over one hundred to one thousand times that doseage to start to cause enough physiological stress on the body to cause an overdose based death (see the LD50 discussed on the first page of this thread by me), though of course psycholgical confusion could lead to dangerous behaviour.

I have rushed this list...

So it seems. I cannot find any of what is described above at the provided link to gizmag. :?


Is that a request for me to reference all of my claims?
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:04 am

zeuzzz wrote:Did anyone watch Robert Sapolsky video I linked to above? I found it very interesting, as it explains how we are cognitively different from other primates, amoungst other things.
Yes Zeuzzz. That was lovely and relaxing.

Now stop {!#%@} diverting and start answering direct questions about your totally unrelated insane theory. :evil:

Are you going to name the exact biological process that you claim allows epigenetics to magically introduce new genes as a result of eating magic mushrooms? :lol:

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:06 am

Why is introducing new genes necessary?
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:06 am

[LMAO ZEUZZZ U N0000B MASSIVE TITFACE]
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:11 am

zeuzzz wrote:Why is introducing new genes necessary?
Think really hard. Does modern man have the same gene pool as homo erectus?

The answer is no. Therefore what has entered the gene pool?

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:12 am

zeuzzz wrote:[LMAO ZEUZZZ U N0000B MASSIVE TITFACE]


Ummmmm.....errrrr....thanks for that (What ever that is? ) :lol:

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:14 am

It's really quite funny to me how the more ardent proponents of the reductionist train of thought, that applies to the mechanization and deterministic world-view of the entire biological kingdom, are the most fervent advocates of determinancy and the extrication of free will.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:23 am

Lets put it this way then: Why is introducing new genes necessary for the evolution of the species, a species that clearly has a mind that can effect the brain?

In other words; can all modern technological and cultural human capabilities be sumarized in the gene differentiation of us vs our nearest primate ancestors ? If so how? And how do all human characteristics fall into that less that 1% difference than our nearest primate cousins. Why the less than 1% difference when our cultures, technologies and languages imply otherwiese.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:24 am

zeuzzz wrote:It's really quite funny to me how .........
Zeuzzz. You have just announced to the forum, that you don't think any new genes are required for evolution to take place.

It simply confirms what we already know. You still don't know what the theory of evolution is.
:lol:

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:30 am

Matthew Ellard wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:It's really quite funny to me how .........
Zeuzzz. You have just announced to the forum, that you don't think any new genes are required for evolution to take place.

It simply confirms what we already know. You still don't know what the theory of evolution is.
:lol:


Hey Matt, Do you think there is more to organic life than new genes? If so, what?
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:33 am

zeuzzz wrote:Lets put it this way then: Why is introducing new genes necessary for the evolution of the species, that clearly has a mind that can effect the brain?
WTF does that even mean? :lol:

How can a mind effect the brain, and magically create new genes to allow for evolution?


zeuzzz wrote:In other words; can all modern tecnological and cultural human capabilities be sumarized in the gene differentiation of us vs our nearest primate ancestors ?
No Zeuzzz, just our gene pool which is different from homo erectus. Modern humans simply have different opportunities through evolution to do different tasks. That's why we evolved. :lol:

zeuzzz wrote: If so how? And how do all human characteristics fall into that less that 1% difference than our nearest primate cousins. Why the less than 1% difference?
It's not the 1% difference Zeuzzz. It the recombination of those existing genes. You really didn't understand that until just now? Is that correct?

When I use expression like gene sequence, you do understand that the sequence is important don't you?


Think of the 26 letters in the alphabet. What happens if we re arrange those letters? Do they spell the same words?

Can you please please please please please buy a normal science book on evolution and read it.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:36 am

zeuzzz wrote:Hey Matt, Do you think there is more to organic life than new genes? If so, what?
The environment as a modifier to trigger adaption strategies in evolution. The second step of the theory. Didn't you discuss this in high school biology?

Can you please please please please please please please please buy a standard book on evolution and read it.

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:42 am

Why do you preface a degoraory bolded phrase with a totaly reasonable one?

ie,

Can you please please please please please please please please buy a standard book on evolution and read it.

Where is the parenthesis to further expound your position on my previous more complex posts?

ie, how does a post like this help educate me, or the general forum?
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby Matthew Ellard » Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:37 am

zeuzzz wrote:Why do you preface a degoraory bolded phrase with a totaly reasonable one?


Because you keep going over the same ground as you have no understanding of the basics, concerning the Theory of Evolution.

I propose we both buy the same edition of "Evolution for dummies" and discuss each chapter on the forum. That way, in less than three months, you will start to see how ridiculous some of your claims are. Additionally, you will be able to start formulating your "Stoned Ape II" scientific theory.

Chapter 4: Variation: A Key Requirement for Evolution . . . . . . . . . . . .59
Understanding Variation ...............................................................................59
Key concepts in variation....................................................................60
Two kinds of variation: Phenotypic and genotypic .........................61
Variation that’s important to evolution.............................................62
Population structure and gene flow...................................................63
Where Variation Comes From: Mutations ...................................................63
Important mutations............................................................................64
Which comes first — the mutant chicken or
the selective agent? ..........................................................................64
Different kinds of mutations ...............................................................65
Preventing bad mutations ...................................................................67
Gene Frequency and the Hardy-Weinberg Equilibrium ............................68
What’s the big idea? .............................................................................69
Using the Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium .............................................70

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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:48 am

zeuzzz wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:So it seems. I cannot find any of what is described above at the provided link to gizmag. :?


Is that a challenge to reference every single bulleted claim I made in a way that you will accept?

Because if so I will happily rise to that challenge, and supply voluminous evidence for each, with scientific references, where studies have been made legally susceptible to such verification.

Yes, please do so. Again. And plz stop misrepresenting negligently in the first place. It's not the first time. Thanks.





(That should keep him busy. :heh:)
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:52 am

zeuzzz wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:So it seems. I cannot find any of what is described above at the provided link to gizmag. :?


The Gizmag article was from a John Hopkins experiment.

I never claimed that you could find the mryiad of subjective mushroom experiences I listed previously from the linked to gizmag article.

In fact I said it quite clearly "Using John Hopkins studies dosages as a marker" I only linked to that article as a marker for the dosage reports I posted in the subsequent post, rather than people just take my word about dosage. There is a more clinical and medicinal perspective to this.


:|
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby scrmbldggs » Tue Jun 28, 2016 2:59 am

zeuzzz wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:Well if we are keeping with a mushroom centric perspective on changes in consciousness leading to changes in behaviour and culture that can be inherited between generations mushrooms have a distinct fingerprint once gastronomy is at a sufficient evolutionary level.

Since there is a spectrum of effects to any psychoactive we should start at the threshold and end up at the effective dosage levels. Using John Hopkins studies dosages as a marker. http://www.gizmag.com/johns-hopkins-psi ... age/18981/

At the threshold effect (micro-dosing level) of ingesting just 1-2mg/70kg of psilocybin a number of things are noted:

* Increase in abstract thought and tangential thinking outside the realms of ordinary metabolic reality
* CNS stimulation in terms of a broadening in perceptive scope, noticing things in the immediate environment that are not usually noticed
* Increase in tactile senses, colors are enhanced, visual accuity in terms of edge detection is increased, as the contrast between the now more vibrant colors seems more distinct
* Due to increase in CNS stimulation this can act as a mild aphrodisiac, leading to more offspring
* There are many more reported effects at this dosage level but since the dose is so small many of the effects are difficult to control vs placebo due to other variables effecting the results, I could list some thirty more ...

At the 3-10mg/70kg level there are new phenomenon and an increase in the above

* A breaking of ordinary behavioural patterns so completely new and novel behaviours and cognitive effects become evident
* A more psychologically introspective state is reached, called by psychopharmacologists meta-cognition (ie, thinking about thinking). This is the state that seems to cure people that have OCD ailments, as they are able to 'pull back' from their usual habitual behaviours and see how unproductive they are.
* Feelings (both positive and negative) are enhanced due to this change in meta-cognition
* Incessant laughter and bonding is very common at these low levels, with traits similar to those of enactogenic agents
* Creativity is enhanced as the normal mental modality of thought previously constrained by metabolism is pushed more to the abstract realm
* A loss of self identity (a diminishing of the ego) starts to happen, so social constructs built up by culture start to dissolve and people feel more free, the personality metric used by Griffiths et al in his studies is an 'increase in personality domain of open-ness'

At the 10mg-20mg/70kg level

* Visual hallucinations and a blurring of the immediate environment, to the point where things that are not there begin to be seen, only OEVs, but not CEVs (closed eye visuals)
* The RSN (resting state network) state of mind is peturbed to the point that self identity is hard to conceptualize, leading to a greatly diminished ego and place in the hierarchy of the troop/culture
* A synaesthetic state is reached, where all of the senses get melded together and can interplay and manifest in new novel ways, often experienced as a logos like voice in the head
* Emotions and introspection into ones mental modality and psyche are greatly enhanced, and less focussed on the local environment and more on ones internal state of mind and how this has effected ones behaviours in the past in relation to other people (ie, mirror neuron activity is greatly enhanced)
* A catalysis of consciousness in terms of new ideas, thoughts, insights and feelings; as previously neurologically compartmentalized areas of the brain are shut down due to previously separate areas forming new connections with each other
* At these dosage levels fMRI scans have shown definate decreases in cerebral blood-flow (CBF) in the posterior cingulate cortex, which acts mainly as a kind of central hub where all most cognitive day to day thoughts and input is filtered through, and is the main difference in neuroscience that distinguishes us from primates, as this region displays very high ontogenetic development with time as the brain develops, and is also significantly larger in humans than in primates, with higher density of connections to the rest of the brain

At the 20-40mg/70kg level

* Visual hallucinations and a blurring of the immediate environment become over-powering, communication is out of the question, OEVs are intense and CEVs are even more intense, and referred to in the literature as either mystical or visionary states, with eyes either open or shut
* The RSN is peturbed to the point where self identity is replaced by a feeling of 'one-ness', not just with fellow members of the troop/culture but with the local environment and nature itself
* These intense states are accompanied by fractal visions, and can be accompanied by states of psychological struggle as people wrestle with the loss of their ego and self identity
* The imagination begins to manifest more than external reality and the local environment, leading to a state of synaesthetic creativity that meld all senses into one
* Either the subject starts to panic at the profundity of the experience, with a peak in adrenalin to slowly wear off as the psilocin is metabolized, or they can relax into the experience and come out of it transformed and with a new perspective of the self, their environment, their culture/troop and their place in it. Some 80% of humans who reach this state (from the John Hopkins research) report it to be one of the most spiritually significant happenings of their lives, on a par with giving birth, falling in love for the first time or experiencing the death of a loved one.

Dosages up to ten times that (200-400mg/70kg) are even stronger, but never fatal (maybe for people with pre-existing heart conditions). It takes over one hundred to one thousand times that doseage to start to cause enough physiological stress on the body to cause an overdose based death (see the LD50 discussed on the first page of this thread by me), though of course psycholgical confusion could lead to dangerous behaviour.

I have rushed this list...

So it seems. I cannot find any of what is described above at the provided link to gizmag. :?


Is that a request for me to reference all of my claims?


Umm... yeah.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby OlegTheBatty » Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:09 pm

zeuzzz wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:I never claimed that you could find the mryiad of subjective mushroom experiences I listed previously from the linked to gizmag article.


Subjective experiences? You mean that just changing one's subjective experience changes one's genome?

Wow. I am going to use this to do a makeover. Expect a much more godlike poster in the near future.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:22 pm

OlegTheBatty wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:
scrmbldggs wrote:I never claimed that you could find the mryiad of subjective mushroom experiences I listed previously from the linked to gizmag article.


Subjective experiences? You mean that just changing one's subjective experience changes one's genome?

Wow. I am going to use this to do a makeover. Expect a much more godlike poster in the near future.


Succinct as usual.

And no; ones lifestyle the corresponding neurotransmitters and hormones in the endocrine system based on enivronmental effects and other basic changes to neurology and thus the epigenome take care of themselves. There is not so much a magic or godlike hand here; it's just changes from generation to generation in how the genes are expressed.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:25 pm

scrmbldggs wrote:
zeuzzz wrote:Well if we are keeping with a mushroom centric perspective on changes in consciousness leading to changes in behaviour and culture that can be inherited between generations mushrooms have a distinct fingerprint once gastronomy is at a sufficient evolutionary level.

Since there is a spectrum of effects to any psychoactive we should start at the threshold and end up at the effective dosage levels. Using John Hopkins studies dosages as a marker. http://www.gizmag.com/johns-hopkins-psi ... age/18981/

At the threshold effect (micro-dosing level) of ingesting just 1-2mg/70kg of psilocybin a number of things are noted:

* Increase in abstract thought and tangential thinking outside the realms of ordinary metabolic reality
* CNS stimulation in terms of a broadening in perceptive scope, noticing things in the immediate environment that are not usually noticed
* Increase in tactile senses, colors are enhanced, visual accuity in terms of edge detection is increased, as the contrast between the now more vibrant colors seems more distinct
* Due to increase in CNS stimulation this can act as a mild aphrodisiac, leading to more offspring
* There are many more reported effects at this dosage level but since the dose is so small many of the effects are difficult to control vs placebo due to other variables effecting the results, I could list some thirty more ...

At the 3-10mg/70kg level there are new phenomenon and an increase in the above

* A breaking of ordinary behavioural patterns so completely new and novel behaviours and cognitive effects become evident
* A more psychologically introspective state is reached, called by psychopharmacologists meta-cognition (ie, thinking about thinking). This is the state that seems to cure people that have OCD ailments, as they are able to 'pull back' from their usual habitual behaviours and see how unproductive they are.
* Feelings (both positive and negative) are enhanced due to this change in meta-cognition
* Incessant laughter and bonding is very common at these low levels, with traits similar to those of enactogenic agents
* Creativity is enhanced as the normal mental modality of thought previously constrained by metabolism is pushed more to the abstract realm
* A loss of self identity (a diminishing of the ego) starts to happen, so social constructs built up by culture start to dissolve and people feel more free, the personality metric used by Griffiths et al in his studies is an 'increase in personality domain of open-ness'

At the 10mg-20mg/70kg level

* Visual hallucinations and a blurring of the immediate environment, to the point where things that are not there begin to be seen, only OEVs, but not CEVs (closed eye visuals)
* The RSN (resting state network) state of mind is peturbed to the point that self identity is hard to conceptualize, leading to a greatly diminished ego and place in the hierarchy of the troop/culture
* A synaesthetic state is reached, where all of the senses get melded together and can interplay and manifest in new novel ways, often experienced as a logos like voice in the head
* Emotions and introspection into ones mental modality and psyche are greatly enhanced, and less focussed on the local environment and more on ones internal state of mind and how this has effected ones behaviours in the past in relation to other people (ie, mirror neuron activity is greatly enhanced)
* A catalysis of consciousness in terms of new ideas, thoughts, insights and feelings; as previously neurologically compartmentalized areas of the brain are shut down due to previously separate areas forming new connections with each other
* At these dosage levels fMRI scans have shown definate decreases in cerebral blood-flow (CBF) in the posterior cingulate cortex, which acts mainly as a kind of central hub where all most cognitive day to day thoughts and input is filtered through, and is the main difference in neuroscience that distinguishes us from primates, as this region displays very high ontogenetic development with time as the brain develops, and is also significantly larger in humans than in primates, with higher density of connections to the rest of the brain

At the 20-40mg/70kg level

* Visual hallucinations and a blurring of the immediate environment become over-powering, communication is out of the question, OEVs are intense and CEVs are even more intense, and referred to in the literature as either mystical or visionary states, with eyes either open or shut
* The RSN is peturbed to the point where self identity is replaced by a feeling of 'one-ness', not just with fellow members of the troop/culture but with the local environment and nature itself
* These intense states are accompanied by fractal visions, and can be accompanied by states of psychological struggle as people wrestle with the loss of their ego and self identity
* The imagination begins to manifest more than external reality and the local environment, leading to a state of synaesthetic creativity that meld all senses into one
* Either the subject starts to panic at the profundity of the experience, with a peak in adrenalin to slowly wear off as the psilocin is metabolized, or they can relax into the experience and come out of it transformed and with a new perspective of the self, their environment, their culture/troop and their place in it. Some 80% of humans who reach this state (from the John Hopkins research) report it to be one of the most spiritually significant happenings of their lives, on a par with giving birth, falling in love for the first time or experiencing the death of a loved one.

Dosages up to ten times that (200-400mg/70kg) are even stronger, but never fatal (maybe for people with pre-existing heart conditions). It takes over one hundred to one thousand times that doseage to start to cause enough physiological stress on the body to cause an overdose based death (see the LD50 discussed on the first page of this thread by me), though of course psycholgical confusion could lead to dangerous behaviour.

I have rushed this list...

So it seems. I cannot find any of what is described above at the provided link to gizmag. :?


I will take the bolded as a direct challenge. And supply a reference in my next post for each; but also with a caveat about how science approaches these states of mind.

This is a starting point for what I mean about how flawed the scientific method {as currently prescribed} is with dealing with these states of mind, I started a thread that was over nine pages long about it here on this forum. I will not only reference with scientific literature the points you think lack it but explain why the current psychopharmacological frame work is not easily disseminated into the other more core medicinal and psycholitic areas.
Last edited by zeuzzz on Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby scrmbldggs » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:44 pm

:shock:
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:45 pm

scrmbldggs wrote::shock:

Those eyes seem swollen, or infected; do they they need popping or just meds?

... Please continue your point eitherway.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:50 am

Please bear in mind I post the below things in light of a sixty year ban into legal scientific research into such an agent, pretty much worldwide. So the things that to me come across as obviously true from the few studies that have been legally allowed might come cross to other people as outlandish.

zeuzzz wrote:Well if we are keeping with a mushroom centric perspective on changes in consciousness leading to changes in behaviour and culture that can be inherited between generations mushrooms have a distinct fingerprint once gastronomy is at a sufficient evolutionary level.

Since there is a spectrum of effects to any psychoactive we should start at the threshold and end up at the effective dosage levels. Using John Hopkins studies dosages as a marker. http://www.gizmag.com/johns-hopkins-psi ... age/18981/

[.........................]

scrmbldggs wrote:So it seems. I cannot find any of what is described above at the provided link to gizmag. :?

At the threshold effect (micro-dosing level) of ingesting just 1-2mg/70kg of psilocybin a number of things are noted:

* Increase in abstract thought and tangential thinking outside the realms of ordinary metabolic reality

Baggott, Matthew J. "Psychedelics and creativity: a review of the quantitative literature." PeerJ PrePrints 3 (2015): e1468.

* CNS stimulation in terms of a broadening in perceptive scope, noticing things in the immediate environment that are not usually noticed

No direct scientific reference for this now, as most scientists are not asking the right questions; however this is a very well known effect, from a simple resting state mental modality to a more generally awake and conscious state. There are visual studies (below) but I can create a poll of users instead if that would satisfy you?

* Increase in tactile senses, colors are enhanced, visual accuity in terms of edge detection is increased, as the contrast between the now more vibrant colors seems more distinct

Fischer, Roland, et al. "Psilocybin-induced contraction of nearby visual space." Agents and actions 1.4 (1970): 190-197.

Fischer, Roland, et al. "Measurement of handwriting area to pressure ratios during psilocybin-induced hallucinations." Agents and actions 1.1 (1969): 42-52.

Fischer, Roland, et al. "Personality trait dependent performance under psilocybin." Diseases of the nervous system (1970).

* Due to increase in CNS stimulation this can act as a mild aphrodisiac, leading to more offspring

Wang, Liming. "How sex prevents violence: the magic of caress (and GABA)." Nature neuroscience 17.1 (2014): 4-6.

* There are many more reported effects at this dosage level but since the dose is so small many of the effects are difficult to control vs placebo due to other variables effecting the results, I could list some thirty more ...

At the 3-10mg/70kg level there are new phenomenon and an increase in the above

* A breaking of ordinary behavioural patterns so completely new and novel behaviours and cognitive effects become evident

Tolin, David F., Patrick Worhunsky, and Nicholas Maltby. "Sympathetic magic in contamination-related OCD." Journal of behavior therapy and experimental psychiatry 35.2 (2004): 193-205.

* A more psychologically introspective state is reached, called by psychopharmacologists meta-cognition (ie, thinking about thinking). This is the state that seems to cure people that have OCD ailments, as they are able to 'pull back' from their usual habitual behaviours and see how unproductive they are.

Carhart-Harris, Robin L., et al. "Neural correlates of the psychedelic state as determined by fMRI studies with psilocybin." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 109.6 (2012): 2138-2143.

Moreno, Francisco A., et al. "Safety, tolerability, and efficacy of psilocybin in 9 patients with obsessive-compulsive disorder." Journal of Clinical Psychiatry 67.11 (2006): 1735-1740.

Moreno, Francisco A., and Pedro L. Delgado. "Hallucinogen-induced relief of obsessions and compulsions." The American journal of psychiatry 154.7 (1997): 1037.

Wilcox, James Allen. "Psilocybin and obsessive compulsive disorder." Journal of psychoactive drugs 46.5 (2014): 393-395.


* Feelings (both positive and negative) are enhanced due to this change in meta-cognition

]Kometer, Michael, et al. "Psilocybin biases facial recognition, goal-directed behavior, and mood state toward positive relative to negative emotions through different serotonergic subreceptors." Biological psychiatry 72.11 (2012): 898-906.

* Incessant laughter and bonding is very common at these low levels, with traits similar to those of enactogenic agents

[not in the litertaure, I guess you'll just have to take my (and many thousand more peoples) word on this one. It is often called 'the mushroom giggles']

* Creativity is enhanced as the normal mental modality of thought previously constrained by metabolism is pushed more to the abstract realm

Morris, Kelly. "Research on psychedelics moves into the mainstream." The Lancet 371.9623 (2008): 1491-1492.

Sessa, B. "Is it time to revisit the role of psychedelic drugs in enhancing human creativity?." Journal of Psychopharmacology 22.8 (2008): 821-827.

Fadiman, James, et al. "Psychedelic research revisited." Journal of Transpersonal Psychology 35.2 (2003): 111-126.


Ok thats half the bullet points with some relevant scientific literautre references. If you can't read the full texts then PM me as I have them all on my hard-drive. I will have to do the rest (the other half of my bullet points) another time. Maybe tomorrow if I finish work early.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Jun 30, 2016 1:45 am

Lotta no-link links in there. :-P


Anywho, googleing the first decoy, I get:
NOT PEER-REVIEWED
"PeerJ Preprints" is a venue for early communication or feedback before peer review. Data may be preliminary.
Learn more about preprints or browse peer-reviewed articles instead.


Matthew J Baggott ​
June 30, 2015


Psychedelics and creativity: a review of the quantitative literature

Abstract
[...]
However, qualitative impressions are not always confirmed when quantitative assessments are made and there are reasons to be skeptical about the perceived effects of psychedelics on creativity. Objective tests consistently find hallucinogen-induced impairments in other cognitive domains and these impairment are often accompanied by the erroneous belief that the impaired abilities are enhanced (Hollister, 1968). It is not clear if we should expect creativity to be an exception to this pattern of objective impairments with subjective feelings of improvement. In fact, the “seeming clarity and portentous quality” of thought during hallucinogen effects can include things that later seem trivial to the same person (Jaffe, 1990), which seems consistent with an impaired sense of significance. Even when there are persisting feelings of profound significance after the drug wears off, McGlothlin (1962) points out that the impressively powerful acute effects of psychedelics might lead to a halo effect and exaggerated estimation of benefits...


Author comment

This is a rough draft of a manuscript for which I can think of no good place to publish.



Baggott MJ. (2015) Psychedelics and creativity: a review of the quantitative literature. PeerJ PrePrints 3:e1468 https://doi.org/10.7287/peerj.preprints.1202v1




However, this guy seems to have become quite creative. :?



(I won't mention the deaths under the care of a different physician in Berlin, tho...)
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:08 am

edit; meh, this reference will just become a media based tangent to a much more serious and scientific subject.

Maybe the first reference was not the best.

Move onto the next one(s) Eggs if you wanna get a rough idea of the literature I am using to make my point here.
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby scrmbldggs » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:17 am

K, was just answering the initial post and now see the edit... now edits. I'll just wait... :lol:
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Thu Jun 30, 2016 2:39 am

edit: meh

That was the worst one to quote
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Re: Terence McKennas "Stoned Ape" Theory of Human Evolution

Postby zeuzzz » Sat Jul 02, 2016 12:36 am

zeuzzz wrote:Please bear in mind I post the below things in light of a sixty year ban into legal scientific research into such an agent, pretty much worldwide. So the things that to me come across as obviously true from the few studies that have been legally allowed might come cross to other people as outlandish.

zeuzzz wrote:Well if we are keeping with a mushroom centric perspective on changes in consciousness leading to changes in behaviour and culture that can be inherited between generations mushrooms have a distinct fingerprint once gastronomy is at a sufficient evolutionary level.

Since there is a spectrum of effects to any psychoactive we should start at the threshold and end up at the effective dosage levels. Using John Hopkins studies dosages as a marker. http://www.gizmag.com/johns-hopkins-psi ... age/18981/

[.........................]

scrmbldggs wrote:So it seems. I cannot find any of what is described above at the provided link to gizmag. :?

At the threshold effect (micro-dosing level) of ingesting just 1-2mg/70kg of psilocybin a number of things are noted:

* Increase in abstract thought and tangential thinking outside the realms of ordinary metabolic reality

Baggott, Matthew J. "Psychedelics and creativity: a review of the quantitative literature." PeerJ PrePrints 3 (2015): e1468.

* CNS stimulation in terms of a broadening in perceptive scope, noticing things in the immediate environment that are not usually noticed

No direct scientific reference for this now, as most scientists are not asking the right questions; however this is a very well known effect, from a simple resting state mental modality to a more generally awake and conscious state. There are visual studies (below) but I can create a poll of users instead if that would satisfy you?

* Increase in tactile senses, colors are enhanced, visual accuity in terms of edge detection is increased, as the contrast between the now more vibrant colors seems more distinct

Fischer, Roland, et al. "Psilocybin-induced contraction of nearby visual space." Agents and actions 1.4 (1970): 190-197.

Fischer, Roland, et al. "Measurement of handwriting area to pressure ratios during psilocybin-induced hallucinations." Agents and actions 1.1 (1969): 42-52.

Fischer, Roland, et al. "Personality trait dependent performance under psilocybin." Diseases of the nervous system (1970).

* Due to increase in CNS stimulation this can act as a mild aphrodisiac, leading to more offspring

Wang, Liming. "How sex prevents violence: the magic of caress (and GABA)." Nature neuroscience 17.1 (2014): 4-6.

* There are many more reported effects at this dosage level but since the dose is so small many of the effects are difficult to control vs placebo due to other variables effecting the results, I could list some thirty more ...

At the 3-10mg/70kg level there are new phenomenon and an increase in the above

* A breaking of ordinary behavioural patterns so completely new and novel behaviours and cognitive effects become evident

Tolin, David F., Patrick Worhunsky, and Nicholas Maltby. "Sympathetic magic in contamination-related OCD." Journal of behavior therapy and experimental psychiatry 35.2 (2004): 193-205.

* A more psychologically introspective state is reached, called by psychopharmacologists meta-cognition (ie, thinking about thinking). This is the state that seems to cure people that have OCD ailments, as they are able to 'pull back' from their usual habitual behaviours and see how unproductive they are.

Carhart-Harris, Robin L., et al. "Neural correlates of the psychedelic state as determined by fMRI studies with psilocybin." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 109.6 (2012): 2138-2143.

Moreno, Francisco A., et al. "Safety, tolerability, and efficacy of psilocybin in 9 patients with obsessive-compulsive disorder." Journal of Clinical Psychiatry 67.11 (2006): 1735-1740.

Moreno, Francisco A., and Pedro L. Delgado. "Hallucinogen-induced relief of obsessions and compulsions." The American journal of psychiatry 154.7 (1997): 1037.

Wilcox, James Allen. "Psilocybin and obsessive compulsive disorder." Journal of psychoactive drugs 46.5 (2014): 393-395.


* Feelings (both positive and negative) are enhanced due to this change in meta-cognition

]Kometer, Michael, et al. "Psilocybin biases facial recognition, goal-directed behavior, and mood state toward positive relative to negative emotions through different serotonergic subreceptors." Biological psychiatry 72.11 (2012): 898-906.

* Incessant laughter and bonding is very common at these low levels, with traits similar to those of enactogenic agents

[not in the litertaure, I guess you'll just have to take my (and many thousand more peoples) word on this one. It is often called 'the mushroom giggles']

* Creativity is enhanced as the normal mental modality of thought previously constrained by metabolism is pushed more to the abstract realm

Morris, Kelly. "Research on psychedelics moves into the mainstream." The Lancet 371.9623 (2008): 1491-1492.

Sessa, B. "Is it time to revisit the role of psychedelic drugs in enhancing human creativity?." Journal of Psychopharmacology 22.8 (2008): 821-827.

Fadiman, James, et al. "Psychedelic research revisited." Journal of Transpersonal Psychology 35.2 (2003): 111-126.


Ok thats half the bullet points with some relevant scientific literautre references. If you can't read the full texts then PM me as I have them all on my hard-drive. I will have to do the rest (the other half of my bullet points) another time. Maybe tomorrow if I finish work early.

I started to reference the other claims .... but it was starting to take too much time. I can continue if anyone would like.

Also once the immediately obvious effects are stated the other more interesting research funding tends to peter out, as mushrooms are natural and thus no large pharmaceutical company can patent them for long term medicinal or pharmaceutical study.

They can patent the chemical, psilocin, or try to, but as soon as they start charging the same rates cancer or aids treatments are sold at people will obviously not buy them and just grow their own; so it's an awful business model in a capitalist society.

Thus why I'm stuck in this weird position of sitting on an efficacious medicine that has barely (if ever) been studied in depth by any large corporation with a profit motive. As the way the patent systems works this medicine is basically unpatenable.

If you have been paying attention all the major recent studies I have talked about are either publically funded via a university and group of academics that have worked for years to save funds and get past all the legislative hurdles in the process, or they may have been simply crowdfunded (like MAPS have done recently); none are private investments from large pharmaceutical companies.

I can list these recent studies again if you want. But most are in the OP. I don't want to repeat myself.
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