"Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:00 am

Lance, IIRC you posted exactly the same idea if not a copy and paste of what you posted a few pages back. You got a response then which still applies. You didn't answer then, you won't answer now. And still...............no links.

Like a bad marriage: I'm tired of the repetition.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by TJrandom » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:25 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:I despair.

People who claim to be rational thinkers claiming that a sexual act has nothing to do with sex.

What moronicity !
Who did dat?

We all dispair Lance. Your claim to a unique view of this is outstanding... or did you have links to peer reviewed articles that support your contention and indicate that it is somehow meaningful?

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:36 am

TJ

I did a Google search for a reference. There are numerous references, but they all refer to sexual arousal rather than the sex drive. There is no difference, but you guys quibble so much that I do not think that will convince you. After all, Nikki posted a reference showing how rapists get sexually aroused and claimed it proved sex had nothing to do with rape.

It is hard to argue with that kind of pseudo-religious nonsense, where blind belief is accepted and solid sense is ignored. I ask, if sexual arousal is required for rape, how is that not the sex drive in operation ?

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by TJrandom » Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:48 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:TJ

I did a Google search for a reference. There are numerous references, but they all refer to sexual arousal rather than the sex drive. There is no difference, but you guys quibble so much that I do not think that will convince you. After all, Nikki posted a reference showing how rapists get sexually aroused and claimed it proved sex had nothing to do with rape.

It is hard to argue with that kind of pseudo-religious nonsense, where blind belief is accepted and solid sense is ignored. I ask, if sexual arousal is required for rape, how is that not the sex drive in operation ?
Now now Lance... please don`t just muddy the water. Using your (Collins) definition of rape, nobody here claims sexual arousal or sex drive don`t operate in rape. Just as nobody (yet) has claimed that being alive isn`t necessary to commit a rape. But stating and restating, and then re-restating the irrelevant obvious doesn`t say anything meaningful about rape or contribute to the conversation.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Io » Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:02 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:People who claim to be rational thinkers claiming that a sexual act has nothing to do with sex.
Rape is not exclusively a sexual act. This is the crux of the argument. Rape as a sexual act is underpinned by sexual drivers. When it's not a sexual act, but instead a violent act it's not necessarily driven by sex. The problem is that you can't see rape as being anything other than a sexual act. Your view is not wrong, just too narrow. Any time someone posits a non-sexual driver you just repeatedly state that that thing is actually itself a driver of the sex drive which drives rape. Interminably. No progress is ever going to be made in this if you just funnel everything through the lens of the sex drive regardless of reality.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Io » Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:10 am

Anyway, at this point basic human nature is well in play and Lance isn't going to back down as a matter of pride. It's going to take more humility than is typically exhibited in the domain of the internet forum for any party to back down now.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:17 am

It is not pride. It is truth.

There is lots of rape in which other factors are in play. But the sex drive is always there. If it was, as some feminists claim, anger that drives rape, then why is it rape ? There are lots of situations when one person gets violent against another out of anger, and it leads to beatings or similar. But for the act to be sexual, rather than simply violent, there has to be more than anger. That more is sex.

There are various influences that modify the rapists behaviour. Anger, hatred, delusion, etc. But a eunuch who feels these things will not carry out a sex act, but an act appropriate to the emotion involved. For those influences to be part of an act of rape, there must be sexual arousal, and an erection as well. The most basic of all inputs into an act of rape is the sexual part. With other influences, certainly, especially influences helping to drive sexual arousal. But without sex there is no rape.

I mean, it is so simple. Even a total idiot can understand. A sex act involves sex. Duh !!

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by TJrandom » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:40 am

Lance Kennedy wrote: ... I mean, it is so simple. Even a total idiot can understand. A sex act involves sex. Duh !!
You should have stopped sooner.

A sex act involves sex - sure... involves... for the molested person by definition, but not necessarily for the molester. For the molester it may be as simple as hate, power, etc.

For the rapist (your definition), of course it involves sex, and nobody here has said different. I do think you should pay attention to what they have said.

EDIT... Has nobody acknowledged that rape isn`t just power (or anger)? If so, please let me be the first.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:35 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:TJ

I did a Google search for a reference. There are numerous references, but they all refer to sexual arousal rather than the sex drive. There is no difference, but you guys quibble so much that I do not think that will convince you. ?
Link Please. ........................ and seriously Lance: if you put me in a Lazy Boy connected to a plethysmograph and an EEG and then show me pictures of a car accident with brains spread out on the highway with racoons eating the remains and I get a hard on that breaks the plethy and the EEG registers non-sexual areas of the brain being active..............would you call that a demonstration of the sex drive being turned on?

Break a record: answer either of the above.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:39 pm

TJrandom wrote:
Lance Kennedy wrote: ... I mean, it is so simple. Even a total idiot can understand. A sex act involves sex. Duh !!
You should have stopped sooner.

A sex act involves sex - sure... involves... for the molested person by definition, but not necessarily for the molester. For the molester it may be as simple as hate, power, etc.

For the rapist (your definition), of course it involves sex, and nobody here has said different. I do think you should pay attention to what they have said.

EDIT... Has nobody acknowledged that rape isn`t just power (or anger)? If so, please let me be the first.
For Lance:

Thats what "necessary but not sufficient" means/includes...........even though, it can be about power and anger alone. If I kidnap a woman and carve my initials into her back, is that my "carve my initials" drive on display, or something else.

Third time: sex can be a drive, or totally separate from that: a tool.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:07 pm

Bobbo

If you kidnap a woman and carve your initials into her back, I would be happy to accept that the motive is likely to be your level of insanity. But if you rape her, and then initial her, I would have to believe it was sex, even if perverted.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Io » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:10 pm

Yes, we know you do. You keep on saying.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by TJrandom » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:21 pm

Judge: Before I pass sentence - to summarize... You have been found guilty of kidnapping, mutilation, and rape... Do you have anything to say?

Defendant: Ooops... Your honor, I was horny. You know, I just have a normal sex drive.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:07 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Bobbo

If you kidnap a woman and carve your initials into her back, I would be happy to accept that the motive is likely to be your level of insanity. But if you rape her, and then initial her, I would have to believe it was sex, even if perverted.
Ha, ha.............and you "said" you understood analogies/metaphors. I guess........only the ones that agree with you?...... But I still wonder if the import, the learning opportunity, is actually clear to you.

Not......... apparently.

OnWard Christian Soldier: you have unbelievers to deal with.............................
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:32 pm

Lance Kennedy wrote:Bobbo

If you kidnap a woman and carve your initials into her back, I would be happy to accept that the motive is likely to be your level of insanity. But if you rape her, and then initial her, I would have to believe it was sex, even if perverted.
1. That wasn't the question.
2. Why would you think that?
3. Where are your links??
4. I'll give you a full point for actually answering the question. Not successfully, but this is a process.

Your score to date: minus 23.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:31 pm

TJrandom wrote:Judge: Before I pass sentence - to summarize... You have been found guilty of kidnapping, mutilation, and rape... Do you have anything to say?

Defendant: Ooops... Your honor, I was horny. You know, I just have a normal sex drive.
Which is totally misquoting my position.
The kidnapping and mutilation are serious crimes, deserving serious punishment, and the rape is the result of TWO things.
1. Sex drive.
2. The guy is an arsehole.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by TJrandom » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:05 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:
TJrandom wrote:Judge: Before I pass sentence - to summarize... You have been found guilty of kidnapping, mutilation, and rape... Do you have anything to say?

Defendant: Ooops... Your honor, I was horny. You know, I just have a normal sex drive.
Which is totally misquoting my position.
But if you rape her, and then initial her, I would have to believe it was sex, even if perverted.
Well, your quote does indeed leave out the kidnapping... :lol:

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:25 am

The rape part involves sex. The mutilation part, who the hell knows where that comes from.

When you add other crimes to rape, you leave open the motivation for those other crimes. But rape requires sexual arousal (after all, how can rape occur without an erection ?), and sexual arousal comes from the sex drive plus whatever turns the rapist on.

I think you guys are simply engaged in faulty logic. You think that, because the stimulus that gets a rapist aroused may be weird, that it is not sex. But sexual arousal is always from the sex drive.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Io » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:12 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:You think that, because the stimulus that gets a rapist aroused may be weird, that it is not sex.
No, I think that because the stimulus that gets a rapist aroused may be weird that it's not necessarily sex.

Even without any evidence to either suggest or refute your case it should be pretty clear that to state outright that there can be absolutely no other motive for rape than sex is a step too far. You can't unequivocally be 100% sure that there are definitely no other causes. Unless you're a fool, of course. Are you a fool, Lance?

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:51 am

Lance Kennedy wrote: But sexual arousal is always from the sex drive.
Link Please. How about what you google for the first time and you think is close but not close enough??????

Note: this does not include your personal diary. That would be TMI.....as opposed to the NONE you have provided so far.

Ha, ha........watching the stupid hole grow deeper..........................
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:56 am

Io

Again, my position is being misrepresented. Sex drive is the basic motive behind rape, but there may be more to it. Some rapists are angry or turned on by violence or whatever. So you can state there are several causes. But sexual arousal, meaning sex drive, must be present.

I read an article on rape in the Viet Nam war. All those all-American boys, young and virile, fighting there. Guys who came home and married their sweethearts, and grew into pillars of the community. In war, they engaged in evil acts. A lot of them engaged in rape, and worse. The justification for that rape was that they were raping the enemy. But a lot of pretty much innocent Vietnamese girls got raped, often gang raped, and many got murdered as well. Humans are rationalising animals, and those soldiers rationalised that the girls they raped were evil, because some of the Viet Kong soldiers had killed some Americans. But the real reason, as opposed to the rationalisation, for the rapes was that the soldiers were sexually aroused. It was always the young and pretty girls who got raped.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:59 am

Your model for rape is the Vietnam War? Not even a Link to the Tet Offensive??? You missed an easy .5 point there.

As always: you ignore the plethy hypo (which is real btw) that destroys your mantra.

Just look.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by TJrandom » Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:17 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:.... You think that, because the stimulus that gets a rapist aroused may be weird, that it is not sex. But sexual arousal is always from the sex drive.
Lance - that says nothing meaningful about rape. We may as well be discussing consensual, but kinky sex.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Feb 05, 2018 4:02 am

TJ

No one has answered the simple question.

If rape comes not from the sex drive, how is this non sexual rapist able to get the erection he needs ?

A eunuch can feel hate, anger, violence and all the other things you guys claim motivates rape, but a eunuch never rapes. Guess why.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by TJrandom » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:00 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:TJ

No one has answered the simple question.

If rape comes not from the sex drive, how is this non sexual rapist able to get the erection he needs ?

A eunuch can feel hate, anger, violence and all the other things you guys claim motivates rape, but a eunuch never rapes. Guess why.
Of course. We don’t normally answer irrelevant questions.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:13 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:TJ

No one has answered the simple question.

If rape comes not from the sex drive, how is this non sexual rapist able to get the erection he needs ?

A eunuch can feel hate, anger, violence and all the other things you guys claim motivates rape, but a eunuch never rapes. Guess why.
Eunuchs DO rape. You just call them not true Eunuchs or its not a true rape. Twist, twist, twist in the wind. The insularity of a closed mind, the circular reasoning/defensive argument/view of the world.

So, you have flipped flopped back to your OP that rape is all sex drive and not necessary but not sufficient. You will deny this flip flopping again, THEN.........of course................ you know what happens with your next breath.....

Ha, ha. You have taken a complex hooman activity and reduced it to your own simple formula of if=>then.

Why doesn't the plethy show that you are wrong?
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Io » Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:34 am

Remember when this thread was about whether feminism could be called a science? The good old days. It were all green fields round ere then.
Lance Kennedy wrote:Again, my position is being misrepresented.
No-one is misrepresenting your position. Perhaps lack of clarity through misunderstanding of poor English is causing some confusion, but we all follow your point:

Where A to Z represent the top 26 factors involved in the urge to rape and A represents the sex drive, you say: "A plus one or more of B to Z cause rape". We say "one or more of A to Z cause rape". We all, you included, are aware that it's a highly complex interplay of A to Z at work (B - Z being what you sum up as 'arsehole'). The only difference between you and the rest of us is that you say A must be involved. We say it doesn't always have to be in every case.

An erection can happen without sexual input at all. You can get one through simple manual stimulation. You don't have to be conscious. For example, there have been erections noted in patients who are in comas and persistent vegetative states (just google erections in patients in vegetative states). I expect you'll say that the sex drive is somehow responsible for that anyway, so I don't know why I bother mentioning it.

Also rape doesn't have to involve a penis. As has been stated several times before.

And so you can quote another single case to illustrate your point until we're all blue in the face. No-one denies these scenarios exist, but you do deny that others can.

You need to broaden your comprehension of what constitutes rape. Stop relying on one dictionary and consider the common and legal usage of the word in modern English.

Anyway, as I said, it's too late and too much pride is at stake now for anyone to back down, so why bother arguing? Just stop making foolish comments, state that your position is just your opinion and we can all move on, go home and have some breakfast. There's light coming through the curtains - we've talked aaaaallll through the night.

edit: typo, twice

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:13 pm

Io: the A to Z vis a vis the B to Z analysis is a very nice ANOTHER way to lay out the distinction Lance refuses to make.

Well done.
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:48 pm

I say A plus one of the others, because A is ALWAYS required, while the others are not.

And Bobbo, a eunuch never rapes. Yes, you get the odd guy who is fully developed sexually and loses his testicles, who can rape. But he is not a eunuch because he is fully developed sexually and has a sex drive. A eunuch has no sex drive and he never rapes. Any male who loses his testicles BEFORE puberty will not develop a sex drive and will never rape.

Of those A to Z factors, ONLY A is always a factor.

Without sex drive, there is no rape. With sex drive, and the arsehole factor, you get rape. The A to Z argument is another piece of total bull-{!#%@}.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Io » Mon Feb 05, 2018 6:50 pm

See what I mean?

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:00 pm

Eunuch: A man who has been castrated and is incapable of reproduction. //// Nothing about the sex drive or rape here.

Lance: once again (as always) you take one view of a subject, this time eunuchs, and ignore all the other variables. What is filling up your otherwise unused brain space?..........or is it too many Mexican Pork Tacos?
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:58 pm

I think the real point of disagreement here is semantic. If you take the definition of rape to include sexual molestation, then it can be motivated by cruelty, or things other than sex.

But if you use the definition I posted, from the Collins unabridged dictionary, then rape involves penis penetration, and that can only happen if the rapist is sexually aroused and has an erection.

By that definition, your argument is crap. If you want to claim rape includes attack with a dildo, you can make the claim you make. All semantics.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:51 am

Lance Kennedy wrote: But if you use the definition I posted, from the Collins unabridged dictionary, then rape involves penis penetration, and that can only happen if the rapist is sexually aroused and has an erection.
ftfy
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:26 am

I still find this truly weird that people who claim to be rational can say that a sex act has nothing to do with sex. Why are people so stooopid?

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by TJrandom » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:28 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:I still find this truly weird that people who claim to be rational can say that a sex act has nothing to do with sex. Why are people so stooopid?
Quote please.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Io » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:23 am

Lance Kennedy wrote:I still find this truly weird that people who claim to be rational can say that a sex act has nothing to do with sex. Why are people so stooopid?
And I find it truly weird that you still haven't realised, despite it being spelled out for you in no uncertain terms, that rape isn't always a sex act. Why are you so determined to fail to recognise this? Exactly what have you got invested in rape being only sexual? I honestly don't see why you want it to be sexual so much. Has there been some episode in your past that means accepting reality would force you to conclude something terrible about some one you thought you knew..? or yourself? What is it????? You've been presented with enough that you should at least have doubts now. If you were a genuine sceptic you'd look into it further and stop being so bloody-minded.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:41 am

The reality not being accepted is that the first thing Lance thinks of might be wrong. And not even "wrong" as much as not complete.

A very conservative mindset....not skeptical at all..............not even reasonable.
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Lance Kennedy
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:25 pm

Io

Rape is ALWAYS a sexual act. Though, if that idea upsets you, you could re-word the statement and call it an act of violence with a strong sexual component. That might be more suitable for someone who likes to hide from reality.

Rape, by definition, involves penis insertion into a vagina. This in turn requires an erection, meaning sexual arousal, which comes from the sex drive. With no sex drive, there is no sexual arousal, and no erection, and therefore no rape.

If you have an act with no sexual component, then it becomes simple violence, and not rape. It still staggers me that so-called skeptics hide behind politically correct bull-{!#%@}.

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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by bobbo_the_Pragmatist » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:20 pm

WHAT?????????????????????????

Lanced: I can't BELIEVE you are repeating an argument already made, refuted, and not responded to.

I mean....................................... who .............................. just WHO ....................... would do that?
Real Name: bobbo the existential pragmatic evangelical anti-theist and Class Warrior.
Asking: What is the most good for the most people?
Sample Issue: Should the Feds provide all babies with free diapers?

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Lance Kennedy
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Re: "Feminist scientist" is an oxymoron.

Post by Lance Kennedy » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:32 pm

Bobbo

Simple.
My argument has not been refuted.
You guys have pointed out, repeatedly, that there are other factors involved in rape. Sure. No denials here. But they are not common to all rapes. The one thing common to all rapes is sexual, a penis thrust into a vagina. Guess what, genius ? That is sex.